PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [9:33:08] Good morning, everybody. The situation in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, in the case of The Prosecutor
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1 ICC-0/0-0/0-T--Red-ENG WT -0-0 / NB T Trial Hearing (Open Session) ICC-0/0-0/0 0 0 International Criminal Court Trial Chamber VI Situation: Democratic Republic of the Congo In the case of The Prosecutor v. Bosco Ntaganda - ICC-0/0-0/0 Presiding Judge Robert Fremr, Judge Kuniko Ozaki and Judge Chang-ho Chung Trial Hearing - Courtroom Thursday, September 0 (The hearing starts in open session at. a.m.) THE COURT USHER: [::0] All rise. The International Criminal Court is now in session. Please be seated. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::0] Good morning, everybody. Court officer, please call the case. THE COURT OFFICER: [::] Thank you, Mr President. The situation in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, in the case of The Prosecutor versus Bosco Ntaganda, case reference ICC-0/0-0/0. We are in open session. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::0] Thank you, court officer. Now appearances, please. MS SIM: [::] Good morning, Mr President. Good morning, your Honours. For the Prosecution today are Dianne Luping, Marion Rabanit, Nicole Samson, Selam Yirgou and myself, Kristy Sim. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::0] Thank you, Ms Sim. Defence, please..0.0 Page
2 ICC-0/0-0/0-T--Red-ENG WT -0-0 / NB T Trial Hearing (Private Session) ICC-0/0-0/0 MR GOSNELL: [::] Good morning, Mr President, your Honours. Christopher Gosnell for Mr Ntaganda this morning, accompanied by Margaux Portier and Benjamin Nodet. Thank you, Mr President. 0 0 PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::0] Thank you, Mr Gosnell. And Legal Representatives of Victims, please. MS PELLET: [::0] (Interpretation) Thank you, your Honour. Representing the former child soldiers, myself, Sarah Pellet. MR SUPRUN: [::0] (Interpretation) Good morning, your Honours. Representing the victims of the attack, Anne Grabowski and myself, Dmytro Suprun. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::] Thank you, Ms Pellet. Thank you, Mr Suprun. Today we are going to hear the last witness of this evidentiary block, Witness D-. The Chamber previously decided in our decision, with filing number 0, to hear this witness via video link. For the next issue, court officer, let's move into private session. (Private session at. a.m.).0.0 Page
3 ICC-0/0-0/0-T--Red-ENG WT -0-0 / NB T Trial Hearing (Private Session) ICC-0/0-0/0 0 0 (Open session at. a.m.) THE COURT OFFICER: [::] We are in open session, Mr President. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::] Thank you, court officer. The Legal Representative of former child soldiers has requested authorisation to question the witness. This is filing number 0, filed on September 0. And as per our usual practice, the Chamber will deal with this request after the Prosecution has finished his cross-examination. Finally, I recall that the Defence estimates that it will need three and a half hours for its examination-in-chief of this witness. As with other examinations, the Chamber will remain vigilant to ensure that the examination is relevant to the facts of the case. And now we can turn to the scheduled testimony. Mr Gosnell. MR GOSNELL: [::] Mr President, I'm not sure if the Trial Chamber is informed, but an was sent, I don't have the at hand, but an was sent subsequent to that initial estimate indicating, if I recall the words exactly, that we believe that we can complete the examination in to. hours and in my final.0.0 Page
4 ICC-0/0-0/0-T--Red-ENG WT -0-0 / NB T Trial Hearing (Open Session) ICC -0/0-0/0 0 preparations I do think that's feasible. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::] Thank you. It's mainly for Prosecution to be warned. Ms Sim. MS SIM: [::0] Thank you, your Honour. We're just checking because I don't -- I haven't seen this , but I take note of counsel's submission that it's two to two and a half hour estimate. We of course planned that it was going to be three and a half hours because that was the most recent estimate that we received, so it might be the case that we need more time, but we'll have to see how it goes on that basis. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::] To be honest, I'm also not aware of this amendment of the Defence request. But as usual I think it's nothing extraordinary. Generally, general rule is that you should take the same time, but if you would come with some reasonable request we can extend it according reasons which will persuade us. Mr Gosnell. MR GOSNELL: [:0:] May I just say, or add to that, Mr President, I hope that I have not provided incorrect information now. We are double-checking to see if this was sent. It could be it's the type of that I composed in my mind and 0 didn't actually send. We're just double-checking and if we can find it, we will re-send it. Thank you, Mr President. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [:0:] All right. So now we can move to our witness. So I would like to ask our court officer in Bunia to invite Madam Witness into the transmission room, please. (The witness enters the video-link room).0.0 Page
5 ICC-0/0-0/0-T--Red-ENG WT -0-0 / NB T Trial Hearing (Open Session) ICC -0/0-0/0 WITNESS: DRC-D-D PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::0] Madam Witness, good morning. At the beginning I would like to assure myself that you can see me and hear me. WITNESS: DRC-D-D-0 (The witness speaks Swahili) (The witness gives evidence via video link) THE WITNESS: [::] (Interpretation) Yes, I can hear you. I can see you and I can hear you. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::] Very well. May I continue. Madam Witness, you are -- THE WITNESS: [::] (Interpretation) I beg your pardon. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::0] Sorry, is there any problem? Because I see that, Madam Witness, you are asking our officer for something. What is the issue? THE WITNESS: [::0] (Interpretation) I'd like to know about my protec tive measures. Were they approved? PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::] Yes, they were. And I will deal with that during my introductory notes. So please listen carefully and I will speak about all measures which are connected with your testimony. So first of all, Madam Witness, I will start with saying that you are called to testify in the case against Mr Bosco Ntaganda. You will be asked questions both by the Judges and lawyers here in the courtroom in The Hague and that is why I would like to provide you with some guidance for answering questions first. So please listen carefully to the questions. If you do not understand, feel free to ask for the question to be repeated. We want you to tell the truth and tell us what you saw, heard or sensed yourself. Please testify just on that which you really remember. Don't guess, don't make things up. There is nothing wrong in saying "I don't know".0.0 Page
6 ICC-0/0-0/0-T--Red-ENG WT -0-0 / NB T Trial Hearing (Open Session) ICC -0/0-0/0 WITNESS: DRC-D-D-0 0 or "I don't remember". Do you understand this part of my guidance, Madam Witness? THE WITNESS: [::] (Int erpretation) Yes, I've understood. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::] Fine. Now, Madam Witness, I will focus on protective measures. So protective measures are put in place to ensure that your identity is not revealed to the public. In practice, it means that on the video stream available to the public your face cannot be recognised and that your voice is being disguised so that the public cannot recognise it. We all here in the courtroom will refer to you as "Madam Witness" only, so we will not use your name, and ensure that your name and any other information that risks revealing who you are is not broadcast to the public. Therefore, whenever you need 0 to describe anything that might reveal your identity, we will do so in private session so that no one apart from the court officer sitting with you and the persons here in the courtroom can hear your answer. So did you understand all that? THE WITNESS: [::] (Interpretation) Yes, I've understood. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::] So is it okay with you? Are you feeling safe with those protective measures? THE WITNESS: [::] (Interpretation) Okay. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::0] Fine. So I can move to the next part of my guidance, which is request for you to make your solemn undertaking. So to facilitate this, I'm ready to read it out. And please repeat it after me. So I start now, and please repeat after me: I solemnly declare -- THE WITNESS: [::] (Interpretation) I solemnly declare Page
7 ICC-0/0-0/0-T--Red-ENG WT -0-0 / NB T Trial Hearing (Open Session) ICC -0/0-0/0 WITNESS: DRC-D-D-0 PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::] -- that I will speak the truth -- THE WITNESS: [::] (Interpretation) -- that I shall speak the truth -- PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::] -- the whole truth -- THE WITNESS: [::] (Interpretation) -- the whole truth -- PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::] -- and nothing but the truth. THE WITNESS: [::] (Interpretation) -- and nothing but the truth. 0 PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::] Thank you, Madam Witness. It means that now you are under oath. And you also need to be aware that it is an offence to give false testimony. Do you understand that? THE WITNESS: [::] (Interpretation) Yes. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::] Good. And finally, a few practical matters you should have in mind in giving your testimony. It is important to speak into the microphone, which you're doing very well so far, to speak clearly and to speak at a slow pace to allow the interpreters to translate everything. This is essential for us to properly hear, record and translate what you are saying. Have you understood all that, Madam Witness? THE WITNESS: [::0] (Interpretation) Yes, I've heard and I understand. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::] Very well, Madam Witness. That's it for 0 the moment from my part and we can then start your testimony. floor to representative of Defence, Mr Gosnell. And I will give Mr Gosnell, you have the floor and we are in open session at the moment. MR GOSNELL: [::] Thank you very much, Mr President. Just before we -- just before I begin and before we leave open session, may I just apologise for what I said earlier, which is actually not correct. The that was sent on Sunday.0.0 Page
8 ICC-0/0-0/0-T--Red-ENG WT -0-0 / NB T Trial Hearing (Private Session) ICC -0/0-0/0 WITNESS: DRC-D-D at. did not contain the information about the estimate. It had been in a prior draft of the , but the final version that was sent out did not contain that information. So I apologise for having said otherwise. And I also apologise to the Prosecution for not having provided that courtesy of an advance notice, because it is helpful, Mr President, and we know that and we do try to provide that information. So I do apologise for not having provided that in advance. May we move into private session, Mr President. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [:0:] Yes. And before doing that on behalf of the Chamber apology accepted. And I can still insist what I have already said to Ms Sim. Now, court officer, let's move into private session. (Private session at.0 a.m.) (Open session at. a.m.).0.0 Page
9 ICC-0/0-0/0-T--Red-ENG WT -0-0 / NB T Trial Hearing (Private Session) ICC -0/0-0/0 WITNESS: DRC-D-D THE COURT OFFICER: [::] We are in open session, Mr President. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::] Thank you, court officer. We are returning back into open session just in order to inform public that according to information provided by Defence counsel, this testimony is most likely be conducted totally in the regime of private session because this witness is a protected one and that is why she was granted that her identity will not be revealed. And in practice, it means that this testimony which is planned for today and tomorrow will be probably mostly conducted in private session. Now, let's move in private session, court officer, please. (Private session at. a.m.).0.0 Page
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31 ICC-0/0-0/0-T--Red-ENG WT -0-0 / NB T Trial Hearing (Private Session) ICC -0/0-0/0 WITNESS: DRC-D-D (Recess taken at.0 a.m.) (Upon resuming in open session at. a.m.) THE COURT USHER: [::0] All rise. Please be seated. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::] We are starting the second session today. At the moment we are in open session, but having taken into account the testimony of our witness so far, I guess that we will have to move into private session. Yes. All right, court officer, let's move into private session. (Private session at. a.m.).0.0 Page
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57 ICC-0/0-0/0-T--Red-ENG WT -0-0 / NB T Trial Hearing (Open Session) ICC -0/0-0/0 WITNESS: DRC-D-D THE COURT OFFICER: [::0] We are in open session, Mr President. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::] Thank you. First, slight correction of our transcript, page, line, I said I wouldn't, wouldn't have a big problem. So the word "not" is missing in line. And now, court officer, may I ask you to provide us with information concerning how much time the Defence used so far within the direct examination. THE COURT OFFICER: [:00:0] The Defence has used hours and minutes. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [:00:] Two hours and minutes. So which means that, Ms Sim, you, for sure, will have at your disposal whole afternoon session. Do you think still that you will need -- after having listened to Mr Gosnell's questions, that you will need more time than those two hours? MS SIM: [:00:] It's hard to estimate right now just because I don't know how my questions are going to be responded to, your Honour. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [:00:] I see. So in order not to surprise you at the end of the session, please, you can just remind me 0 minutes before the end of the afternoon session, we can just return back to that issue and we will then decide about the potential request, if any, for extension of time. Now we break and we will reconvene half past. THE COURT USHER: [:0:] All rise. (Recess taken at.0 p.m.) (Upon resuming in open session at. p.m.) THE COURT USHER: [::] All rise. Please be seated. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::] Good afternoon, everybody. Good afternoon, Madam Witness..0.0 Page
58 ICC-0/0-0/0-T--Red-ENG WT -0-0 / NB T Trial Hearing (Private Session) ICC -0/0-0/0 WITNESS: DRC-D-D-0 Mr Gosnell, the Chamber was informed that you would like to address us and that it's necessary to cut audio for that submission. All right. 0 0 So now, court officer, please disconnect audio connection between us and Bunia. Now, I was informed you may proceed, Mr Gosnell. MR GOSNELL: [::] Thank you, Mr President. Since this concerns transcript issues that were heard in private session, I believe we need to move into private session. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::0] Court officer, let's move into private now. (Private session at. p.m.).0.0 Page
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91 ICC-0/0-0/0-T--Red-ENG WT -0-0 / NB T Trial Hearing (Private Session) ICC -0/0-0/0 WITNESS: DRC-D-D (Open session at. p.m.) THE COURT OFFICER: [::] We're in open session, Mr President. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [:0:0] Thank you, court officer. Madam Witness, we have to break now. We will continue with your testimony tomorrow, but I can assure you that tomorrow you will not be -- you will not be with us whole day. I can guarantee that by noon you will be free. But I would like to thank you very much for today's testimony. I know it was very tiring exercise, but I appreciate that you remained patient, that you tried to clearly respond all the questions put to you. And before you leave, I have to give you one guidance: In the meantime till tomorrow, you must not discuss your today's testimony, what you said today, with anybody else. Do you understand that? THE WITNESS: [::] (Interpretation) Yes, I have understood. It's even difficult to talk about these things with anyone else, even -- no one from my side knows that I am here. So I would like to ask whether we can start at 0 tomorrow. Can we start at 0 tomorrow? I have a baby and I have abandoned this child the whole day with a feeding bottle. I didn't know that we were going to sit till this time..0.0 Page
92 ICC-0/0-0/0-T--Red-ENG WT -0-0 / NB T Trial Hearing (Open Session) ICC -0/0-0/0 WITNESS: DRC-D-D-0 0 So please give me time to get my child ready in the morning, to prepare a bottle for the child, and to get the other children ready for the school. I have four children who have to go to school. I will need some time. I respected time you gave me today. I left my child with my younger sister who is -- my child who is ill. So tomorrow I will only be available from 0 a.m. because I have a three-month-old child. I will only be here from 0. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::] Give me second. Court officer in Bunia, may I consult you on that request. Madam Witness saying 0 o'clock. I understand she means 0 o'clock of the Bunia time? What is the time at the moment in Bunia? THE COURT OFFICER: [::] (Via video link) (Interpretation) Mr President, 0 we are at the same time. We have the same time as The Hague. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::0] All right. So 0 in Bunia means 0 here. Give me a second. I will consult court officer and my colleagues about that request. (Trial Chamber confers) PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::0] So, Madam Witness, the Chamber consulted your request. We fully understand your reasons, and in order to make you comfortable we will change the beginning of our session tomorrow and we will start at 0 o'clock. So I thank you for today. See you tomorrow at 0. And now you may leave the transmission room. And we can cut the line because I would like to consult one last procedural issue. And now so according my information, Ms Sim, you so far used hour minutes while Defence used., I guess, before noon, and then Mr Gosnell had been provided with next roughly minutes, so it was., something like that. How much time you estimate you will need to complete your examination tomorrow?.0.0 Page
93 ICC-0/0-0/0-T--Red-ENG WT -0-0 / NB T Trial Hearing (Open Session) ICC -0/0-0/0 WITNESS: DRC-D-D-0 MS SIM: [::] Thank you, Mr President. Again, it's hard to estimate entirely but, but I think an hour is not enough, but easily an hour and a half would do it. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::] You are reading my thought. I will consult my colleagues. (Trial Chamber confers) PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::0] Mr Gosnell, you are opposing that? MR GOSNELL: [::] Yes, Mr President. The request is that the Prosecution, as was so often the case with the Defence, be limited to the amount of time that was used during the direction examination. 0 PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::] Yes, we said that it's a general rule which 0 could be in some well-founded cases adjusted for some specific reasons. Ms Sim would be then in accordance with this general rule good for the Chamber to hear your reasons to ask for more time that has been given to the Defence. MS SIM: [::] Well, as we discussed this morning, we were under the impression that this examination was going to go on for three and a half hours. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::] This is not relevant, I told you. MS SIM: [::0] We certainly didn't prepare on that basis but my submission to you at this point is that the capabilities of the witness have made it seem prudent to go slowly and sometimes read over portions of the transcript and so for that reason it may take a bit longer. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::] Madam Sim, again my comment from my part, you are right, but it is also up to you, as I said, to adjust the way of the questioning to the capability of the witness. I will consult my colleagues. There were also some technical problems, I must admit. I will consult my colleagues on that..0.0 Page
94 ICC-0/0-0/0-T--Red-ENG WT -0-0 / NB T Trial Hearing (Open Session) ICC -0/0-0/0 WITNESS: DRC-D-D (Trial Chamber confers) PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::] So after brief deliberation in the courtroom, silent deliberation, our ruling is that you, Ms Sim and the Prosecution, will be given in fact minutes extra, which means that you will have at your disposal tomorrow hour minutes. Am I correct? Because the Defence used. and you will be given.0, which means it's correct. Because also Chamber at the moment has idea to put some additional questions, it is possible there will be some redirect, and generally we believe that in one session lasting two hours we should complete this witness. So it's in accordance with this estimation. Mr Gosnell. MR GOSNELL: [::] May I make one request, Mr President. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::0] Please. MR GOSNELL: [::0] If there is going to be a reference to something the witness has previously said in a prior transcript or even in this transcript, that we be provided with a line and page reference. That actually may reduce the number of objections that need to be made. Thank you, Mr President. PRESIDING JUDGE FREMR: [::] Yes, I agree because for the first thought it seems that it would be more time consuming, but I agree with Mr Gosnell that in the outcome it will be less time consuming. So, Ms Sim, please have it in mind in preparation of your tomorrow examination. All right? Fine. That's it, and see you tomorrow 0 o'clock. THE COURT USHER: [::0] All rise. (The hearing ends in open session at. p.m.).0.0 Page
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