The Axe Files - Ep. 6: Rep. Nancy Pelosi

Transcription

1 The Axe Files - Ep. 6: Rep. Nancy Pelosi Released Oct. 19, 2015 [00:00:09] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And now from the University of Chicago Institute of Politics, "The Axe Files" with your host David Axelrod. DAVID AXELROD, "THE AXE FILES": Well, one day when I was working as Senior Advisor to President Obama, I got a call from Speaker Nancy Pelosi asking me to come over to the Democratic caucus. The issue on the floor at the time was a cap and trade bill to deal with climate. And Pelosi felt that we hadn't done enough from the White House and to push the bill forward. I've barely got in the caucus room when she lit on me and begin jabbing me in the chest and telling me of what we needed to do to pass the bill. And in the midst of this harangue a minister got up on the platform began delivering the invocation for the meeting of the speaker quickly clasped her hands and about toward the floor in prayer. But as soon as the minister said "Amen", she underclassmen and began jabbing me in the chest again and telling me exactly what we needed to do. And that's one of the reasons why Nancy Pelosi was such an effective and is such an effective legislative leader. One of the most impressive people that I met during my time in Washington for her ability to marshal her forces behind legislation as we've learned recently no mean feat for any Speaker of the House. And I had a chance to talk with her about it the other day, really enjoyed the conversation. I hope you do too. I'm here with Nancy Pelosi, the Democratic Leader of the House former speaker who I had the pleasure to work with my two years in Washington. Leader, I'm a city guy. I grew up in New York City. I came to Chicago nearly 70s. I love urban politics. I mostly did Mayor's races for years and years and years. So Rahm used to say Rahm Emanuel people think she's a Pelosi but really she's a D'Alesandro. And it's important to know that. Tell me about growing up in Baltimore in a political family your dad was the Mayor, you brother was the mayor. Tell me what that was like. REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: Well, when I was born my father was in Congress from Baltimore. And when I was 7-years-old I'm a first grade, he became the mayor of Baltimore. And so, when I went to college he was still the mayor of Baltimore. It's the only life really knew as, you know, a toddler or even my first memories of course with him it's going off to Washington. And I remember my first visit to the capital as a little girl with my fiver older brothers. So it's always been about public service, really not that politics but public service. We always had this sense of responsibility to other people and we lived in an Little Italy in Baltimore, Maryland. We always lives there and people felt when he became mayor he'd move someplace else but that was really home for us. So since I was a little girl I could -- people would knock on the door or call and I couldn't remember what my mother would say. And to I could tell people who to call to get bed in city hospital, go on welfare, you know, place to live in the projects. I mean, it just part of what we do. AXELROD: Did you go around with your dad when he was making his rounds as mayor? PELOSI: Well, I did but we were six of us. So five, we're seven kids, six boys one girl. One of the boys died it's a little boy so was raised five boy, I was the little girl. So people would say don't invite the Ep. 6 Nancy Pelosi 1

2 D'Alesandro because you'll get seven. They travel with family. But yes, I would see. I would go something like wedding or something like that. But that really the community came to our door. They came to our door and was always about our responsibility to other people. AXELROD: And what you learn about politics itself? I mean, it had to be worn politics is a tough politics. It's not genteel politics. People think of you as a effete liberal from San Francisco? PELOSI: They do? AXELROD: Well some people do. PELOSI: Effete, come on? AXELROD: Some people do. PELOSI: Really? AXELROD: Not me. But people who don't know you think of you. But that's a pretty gritty politics, word politics. PELOSI: Yes. AXELROD: Real politics. [00:05:06] PELOSI: Mostly I learned how to count. And that is really what it serves me in a good stead, whether it's about my own election or my election to leadership or my passing legislation. You really have to know how to count and what is yes and what is that would be nice. I mean, that's another yes. And so I would tell see them come like a very foreign election. People would sit around the table with yellow legal pads and say "OK, in order to win we need say for example 100,000 votes. We need to have 20,000 from here. We need 15,000 from there. So everybody would have their allotment that they had to meet at least surpass. And so, it was about the numbers always. Of course it was about the policy and about fighting for people but you have to win in order to do that. And so, it was I always about -- AXELROD: And yes, ma'am yes if people give you a yes you expect them to keep their -- PELOSI: Oh, yes. Well, it was about your word. You don't say yes and go no, more than one time. AXELROD: And what happen when people said no? PELOSI: Well, no they didn't, they didn't. I remember when my brother tells the story who later became mayor. And he tell a story about when my father run. My father, he was the first Catholic mayor of Baltimore of course the first Italian-American but he leapfrog even over the Irish which they couldn't get over. Maryland a catholic state but then they run a Catholic mayor of Baltimore. It's always more in they always say lost variety of mayors. So when he ran it was really something quite remarkable. AXELROD: Heartbreak, yes? Ep. 6 Nancy Pelosi 2

3 PELOSI: Yes. And so, Tommy said that they've just work. It so hard and they -- he was a teenager said night like the night before the election or in the middle of the night. He went to the roof of our house. And to see if the cars were coming, you know, all the cars would come to the headquarters to pick up all their materials for getting out the vote. And he went to the top and he said just like cars coming from every place 5:00 in the morning. And he said, we're going to daddy, he said we're going to give him a run. It was all about grassroots. It's all about get out the vote knocking on doors. AXELROD: I read somewhere -- all cities are ethnic sort of melting pot. PELOSI: Yes. AXELROD: I read somewhere that your dad spoke Yiddish. PELOSI: Yes, yes. Well, when he was a boy he was (INAUDIBLE), you know, (INAUDIBLE) whatever. But it means they go light the fire on a holiday or something, holy day. And so he spoke Yiddish. You know he was quite a showman. He was really in Arthur (ph) and he probably spoke more Yiddish than he spoke Italian. Because his mother was born in Baltimore, his mother was born in Baltimore so wasn't, you know, speak Italian home kind situation. But he was a showman and they love him speaking. AXELROD: And was he, and he work the different ethnic neighborhoods of the city. PELOSI: Oh, yes. AXELROD: And had those kinds of weeks and (INAUDIBLE). PELOSI: Yes. When I was little girl I would go to Black Lake (ph), you know. AXELROD: With him. PELOSI: Weddings. Black cotillion. AXELROD: So how does all this experience help you now? I mean -- how is it? You obviously have a very diverse caucus. PELOSI: Right. The most diverse in history we have over 50 percent and our caucus a women minorities are LGBT, isn't exciting? And that is reflected at the in our chairman, a ranking member. AXELROD: We got some people from different communities different interest, different backgrounds. You got to admit them together. PESOLI: Well, and that is a good word. But I consider myself a leader (ph). And I'd say, I feel I'm in a loom. And everyone of these tread is powerful. It's it brings its own conviction dedication, hard work priorities wherever they are on the political spectrum, geographic generational gender diversity But everyone is a very strong threat. So I'm always weaving it together into a fabric that will be really strong. So we may not always have unanimity but we always had consensus because we recognize the strength was when they brought to it. Not what I describe. Ep. 6 Nancy Pelosi 3

4 AXELROD: It seems like -- I want to second to the current situation. But I always -- it always interested me what difficult job that is to bring people together, who have all these disparate interests. [00:10:06] So was the being the youngest with all those brothers or mother of five, which was very experience in dealing with the comments. PELOSI: Well, both. I think having five brothers and being around boys in sports and all of that made me when I went to Congress, there are only 23 women in Congress out of 435, when I went to Congress for 23 in House, two in the Senate so 25 all together, but in our House out of 435, 23 women and that's like very few. And I'm proud to say that there were efforts and decisions. We have increased our number by fivefold. AXELROD: But you didn't intend and you have a lot of alpha characters. PELOSI: Yes. So I was use to, you know, I always use to being around boys. And then, and so it didn't think, you know, it's a turf and ego or this or that. AXELROD: It didn't bother you. PELOSI: You know what I could role with that, you know, just interesting that you issue, but I have mine. AXELROD: So in my observation having work there for couple of years in the White House was like I knew when I got summon over there by you that it was often for a ritual lashing that your caucus was mad. You needed to show them that you weren't going to let the White House know how you felt. PELOSI: Right. AXELROD: And it seemed to me like yours always like, you have the Senate was one group that always pushing off of, the White House was another. All as part of getting your caucus to where you thought they needed to go. PELOSI: Well as I said, we build consensus. And so, it wasn't as if we deigned to say this is the path on. It was, this is our challenge, this is the urgency for the American people. Well, these are the proposals that coming forth. This is the opportunity we have special when we worked with President Bush to George W Bush but especially when we have a Democratic president when we could really accomplish so much more. So the one thing that I think people really don't know about our caucuses. The reason we were able to get the consensus we had. And the reason was important for us to convey our dismay shall with weather it was a Senate or the White House was our members were very unified around the issue of economic fairness whether it might have been regional differences on guns or choice or this or that. That fair enough (ph) or very, very important. But we knew they were not going over to the other side because of economic fairness. And that drove us and the whole idea that is still the issue and I think in this campaign is either trickle-down economics, which is just give it all to the wealthy and if it trickles down that would be good, if it doesn't so be it, that's the free market. Versus middle-class economics which says we have to invest -- to keep our middle class stronger, consumer economy. We have to have consumer confidence. And so if you had that -- AXELROD: I understand. I'm sympathetic to this, so -- PELOSI: No, but I mean. If you have defined yourself that way and everything else flows from that. Ep. 6 Nancy Pelosi 4

5 AXELROD: Yes. But it doesn't always flow sometimes it has to be. You have to work it. And like I can say to you and I always want to thank you it. I don't think we would have the Affordable Care Act but for what you do. OK, I mean because after Ted Kennedy died, after the Senate when and after it was clear that the Senate bill was the only bill that could pass. Your caucus was very happy. PELOSI: No, we didn't pass that. I mean, we pass it but we amended that. AXELROD: You amended it. But you were limited in what you could do because there couldn't be another Senate vote on the -- PELOSI: Well, they could be. They had to vote on our amendments. And we had commitment from them that we could -- we would amend it. And then they would vote on those amendments. And that's the only condition under which we do for because we thought the Senate bill was wasn't worth the trouble. AXELROD: Right. But there were limitations because of what happened and because we lost the 60 votes there and you had to bring your members along. PELOSI: Yes. What we did extra boost (ph) because we did under reconciliation. AXELROD: Recons on those -- PESOLI: So we need 51 votes. And that is limiting when you had to do an reconciliation. AXELROD: But the point is -- PESOLI: I accept your compliment on behalf of the courage of my members, because we had a wide range. I myself we had public option in the House. We should had public action in the bill that we had that we couldn't get. AXELROD: That was impossible and a lot of people didn't want to vote for it because it wasn't you in there. PELOSI: Yes. AXELROD: But you got them to do it. You persuaded them to do it. PESOLI: Well, in another words what are your choices. And it isn't ever a question of saying this is a little bit better than the status quo. We aren't in up for that. We aren't doing this to a little bit incrementally better. [00:15:13] This was about making a bold statement and doing the boldest possible measure that we could in order to meet the needs of the American people. It was about politics it's about policy. AXELROD: You got it done. And it's a contrast to what we see right now. In the House I was kind of amused there was a op-ed in the Fox today that says "Republicans need a speaker who can change the terms of debate and impose discipline on party members," oddly enough former Democratic Speaker Nancy Pelosi is prototype. So like here you are, Fox News they've come around. They think you're the prototype. PELOSI: But I'm a legislator. I like -- I love legislating. And when you re the speaker or the leader you Ep. 6 Nancy Pelosi 5

6 have to do just that. You have to lead and you don't dictate, you build the consensus and that was that I think the missed opportunity that they had over there. AXELROD: Now speaker seems like a pretty good job, right? You know a lot of prestige. Your in line for the presidency. How come nobody wants the job? PELOSI: Oh, they want it. They just don't have the votes. They want it. Everybody wants it. No, they just don't have the vote. When I say I don't know for if I want. AXELROD: Why can't they form consensus? PELOSI: Well, the -- President of Washington caution against parties that were or their own government, when he left the office. And you can't have a party that it's anti-governance, anti-science don't give me the evidence. I don't want the data, don't document it with the possibilities are because that's not what I'm interested in. Antigovernment, anti-science anti-barack Obama AXELROD: Do you think that's all, do you think that's the whole caucus or do you think that John Boehner is someone you've known for years and years and years. And my sense was that you had a good relationship. PELOSI: I do. AXELROD: With him. Do you have some sympathy for the situation he found him in? I mean, do you consider him a governing conservative or anti-government conservative? PELOSI: How can I say, 151 members of the Republican caucus at the end of September voted to keep, to shut government down. Do not pass the bill. A 151, only people think oh, its 20 or 30. No, that's a big swath (ph) 199 of them voted against the full-faith and credit of United States of America on our last vote. Only 28 of them voted -- (CROSSTALK) PELOSI: So, on the deficit. So the same part of this and I take this some of the press. People have to know what is going on over there. AXELROD: What do you think Boehner hasn't shown enough gumption and standing up to some of that? PELOSI: Well, he gave up the gavel and rather than shutting down government. That was I think courageous. But, if you really want to know, I mean I don't know how long we have to do. AXELROD: I really want to know but -- PELOSI: OK, if you really want to know. Here's what I said to him he become a speaker. I said, you know, there are times when your caucus will not want to go a place that you know we have to go for the country. I use this an example when we or elected to the majority. We pass the bill to end the war in Iraq with a time table. Like to President Bush and he vetoed the bill. We couldn't overwrite the veto. So we -- but the troops were still on the field. And the members were like, well, I'm not voting from the funding for the war because that's the way we can end it. We're not going to vote for it. Well, there in the field. Their in the field, it takes a while to get them back and we didn't win that vote but they're in the field. And we'll still continue and make that fight. But we have to fund the troops. You can't Ep. 6 Nancy Pelosi 6

7 say I support the troops when it's easy. AXELROD: Right. PELOSI: You have to do it when it's hard too. And so at the same we had to have a bill for Katrina because we had an emergency funding need. So a domestic emergency we had supported (ph) the troops even though we weren't supporting the war. So what we did was we put everything on the floor. We said, you want to do the math? Well, they say, well, you're going to make my vote. If I want to support Katrina, I have to support the war. I said no, you can support the Katrina and the other domestic agenda. You can support, you can vote your hearts out against the war and those who can, not against the word but against the funding of the troops. And then we'll have enough votes coming together to support their troops. I have doing that. I said, you have anything to study about a though vote. A hundred of thousands people -- street I had impeach, an impeach pack to impeach George Bush. [00:20:08] You know now we're talking heavy duty about we couldn't leave the troops without funding, now could we. So, I mean as much I hated that war. I said when I was top Democrat on intelligence when we voted on the -- that going into Iraq. And I said at the time because I wasn't part of some they called the gang of four. The administration had to show me everything. So it's the top Democrats I recommend. And I said this intelligent does not support the threat. The press said you're calling a President a liar. I said, I'm not calling him a liar. I'm just stating a fact. AXELROD: Right. PELOSI: There is no evidence for the war, for whatever they're maintaining. It wasn't lie. AXELROD: Right. And history we got. PELOSI: And so -- but I knew that. Nonetheless I have a lot, overwhelming our Democrats in the House voted against the war. AXELROD: Right. PELOSI: So it wasn't if they could say to me. I had some fund this for this war. But (INAUDIBLE) when I said to him is, all you have to do is let them vote their heart. Don't ask them to vote against something they don't want to be for. Let them vote. But you will be able to put together a combination of votes to will get done. AXELROD: So they has strict rule has been obstacle and that he can't rely on any Democratic votes or hasn't been able to. PELOSI: First of all the there has strict rule was in the rule. AXELROD: I understand that. PELOSI: Whatever you want to call it. That was -- Ep. 6 Nancy Pelosi 7

8 AXELROD: And that we should say that's the notion that you have a majority. That majority. PELOSI: You have to have the majority of the majority in order to bring something to look forward. They have even gone beyond that. They've even gone beyond that, you know, majority wouldn't be enough for them. But that you cannot -- you have to have -- you have to do your job. And the job is to lift the full faith and credit the United States of America. They would never brought that over 199 versus 28 on their side. AXELROD: So what are you saying about Boehner? What should we have done? PELOSI: What I'm saying is that we did do it one time. We did on -- now we've done it twice with the continuing resolution. But they did it, we made it too hot to handle for them not do it on the Violence Against Women Act. Six hundred days it was overdue. It has expired. AXELROD: Right. PELOSI: Six hundred says. So I said and -- you have to take it to the public and that's why we're suppress with being more cooperative. AXELROD: Well, I want to get to Boehner though, or whoever takes -- PELOSI: Which OK, so -- AXELROD: -- how do you control this. PELOSI: So he brought it. He brought it to the floor. They could vote there. Hearts out on a bill that says we're against violence against women unless you're immigrant, a Native American or an LGBT woman want. They've voted for that. We've voted for actually bipartisan bill that it come from the Senate. So they have to vote against anything they believed. And yet we were able to put together the votes to pass the bill. He should have done that more. He should have done that more. Just let them do, be themselves but also not give them gather (ph). AXELROD: Can anyone get elected or get elected by that caucus who's willing to do that. Who says, yes I'm going to. Oh, I mean one of the reason why there's a little pressure been let off because Boehner now is unbridled than he feels like he can work with you and get Democratic votes for some of the things that you guys want to get done in the next few weeks. Can somebody been elected over there who's willing to do that, to work with Democrats? PELOSI: Well, they're going to have to because we have serious deadlines. The end of this month is the -- there is more highway trust fund, it's over the end of October. We have to have a transportation bill in two weeks. By the third of November we've run out of money the full faith and credit of the United States. Have now four initiatives that they voted for, but now they don't want to pay for it. By the December 11th, will it have government open or close? So we have matter of days and weeks. AXELROD: Are you confident that these things will get done. PELOSI: They have too. They have too and that's why -- Ep. 6 Nancy Pelosi 8

9 AXELROD: Do you think Boehner is confident and his willing to get these things done? PELOSI: We'll do as few one of them is the EXIM bank which is real job issue for us. We've had maneuver the other day that was successful. AXELROD: What about the debt ceiling? PELOSI: The debt ceiling is a moral obligation of United States of America. And I think that will happen. AXELROD: You do think it'll happen? PELOSI: Yes. And what will happen is that they will try again to unseat him. You know this isn't just, you're leaving by the end of August, October, so -- AXELROD: Ultimately Speaker of the House serves at the pleasure of the whole House. So, if there were a vote in the entire House. Would all the Republican walk away from him? PELOSI: I don't think so. No, I think -- AXELROD: And would Democrats support him if it was over the issue of the debt ceiling. [00:25:02] PELOSI: Now I'm saying that, we get him trouble in his caucus now wouldn't it. But the full faith in credit at the United States of America would be upheld. Yes. Yes, so at any event, I think that they could have done more to just say, this is what we have to do. And we did somethings working together. But they have a caucus that is anti-governance. The issue of government and how much is oldest their country and that's a legitimate debate but anti-governance, shutdown government. Hooray, they cheer. How could that be, when you've run for public office? So, as I think the while that the number is not 100 percent of them anti-governance. Almost to everyone of them has been enabler of that attitude. AXELROD: Do you think that will change? After all of this? Is there -- as we were coming up to a confrontation? PELOSI: We have an election that will make the difference. But the President Lincoln quote it Washington to start. President Lincoln said, public sentiment is everything, with it you can accomplish almost everything without nothing. And that's why we had -- AXELROD: But, you know, some of these guys are come from districts where you actually get rewarded for, where there's a strong anti-government sentiment and they get rewarded for that. PELOSI: Well, you know, but do they want to infrastructure build. Do they want jobs? You know there are some of the districts are very anti immigration, their anti-choice. Yes. And but that's not -- that not most of the Republican districts. Now commonly (ph) agree with you. Many of them are complete reflection of their graying districts. AXELROD: Well, let me just finish up by asking you this. You -- let's end where we started. You're family was very much from the Roosevelt era, political lineage. I think I read one of your brothers where actually named after Franklin Roosevelt. Ep. 6 Nancy Pelosi 9

10 PELOSI: Yes, Franklin Roosevelt D'Alesandro. AXELROD: And nice blending of backgrounds. Talk about melting pot, but when you look back at your time in Congress. PELOSI: Yes. AXELROD: What are the things that in that tradition do you feel that you've been involved in and that will be remembered in the way that -- PELOSI: Well, my own inspiration was John F. Kennedy, of course when I was -- AXELROD: You met him, right? PELOSI: We've met a number of times. AXELROD: And what was that like? PELOSI: Very exciting. He was so inspirational and he always speaks his speeches. AXELROD: That's how my interest started to as 5-year-old boy he came my little Stuyvesant Town in New York. And that was it. That's what get me hook. PELOSI: Well, he was something very special. AXELROD: Yes. PELOSI: And he's policies were very much. While their had the new frontier. It was the new deal. It built on all of that. And when you see Lyndon Johnson and the great society, look at the things that they did between those -- between Roosevelt, Lyndon Johnson continue the work of John F. Kennedy, social security, what a great name. Social Security, lifting people out of poverty -- now we come up to Johnson, Medicare & Medicaid, head start. All of these initiatives to lift people up, that is what the tradition I was raised in. And now we have 50th anniversary at many of those things including other expansion of freedom whether it's a Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act and the rest of that. So, our country is a different place because the deal in that. AXELROD: You've been a partner with this President, the President I work for Obama. How he'll be remembered by history? PELOSI: I think he'll be remembered as great president. He did really great things and, the one thing I would say and I may write a book about this, is I don't -- I think he projected his goodness and his decency on to other factors in the governmental process, the Republicans. AXELROD: And you see too trusting of the Republican? PELOSI: Well, not too trusting but he figured. If you have a good idea and he was always asking for theirs. He was always asking for their, how can we work together? What are your priorities? But really, they do not give him the respect he deserved. I think that he always wanted to be very by partisan, which is a very good thing and the public values Ep. 6 Nancy Pelosi 10

11 that. But he had to really take it more to the public to say, this is why something aren't happening. They just won't cooperate. But that is not who is. [00:30:06] AXELROD: And here's my -- I know we have run for program at the Institute of Politics. PELOSI: It's very exciting. AXELROD: But I want to ask you about your own plans. You know, you've state -- some people felt you stayed longer than you actually wanted to because you felt it was your obligation to do so. PELOSI: No one ever asked me too. AXELROD: Right. But they'd ask you to do that in perpetuity. I know you've got big, you got a large family, grandchildren. PELOSI: Yes, five kids, grandchildren. AXELROD: Are you going to - -how long you're going to do this? PELOSI: I don't know. I'm not said it, I'm not on the time table. I'm on crusade and we have some more work to do. And I'm really optimistic about this next election. I think that it so much at stake, the urgency of it is very clear. And the -- I'm sad about what's happening on the Republican side because that's just not constructive. But the one good part of it is, the public sees what we been up against for a long time, where there's just an anti-government attitude that does not new. AXELROD: Do you think you might stay to work with the next Democratic president if there is a Democratic president? PELOSI: Yes. There will be Democratic president. This is an election about American. AXELROD: So yes, you might stay? PELOSI: Yes. This is an election about America. I mean I'm making my plans right here and now we'll see how it goes. But that's not excluded shall we say. It's about America, it's not about Democrats or Republican. It's about our country, about our country about the middle class and that's what president said it's a beautifully at the White House the other day. He said the middle class has union label on it. They're trying to undermine right to collect of bargaining and organizing undermine, women who are undermine, environmental movement and all of that. AXELROD: So the fight goes one for you? PELOSI: The fight goes on. But I think it's a fight that a public has much more aware of now because they see, what is the -- principle that is dividing the Republican Party? This is not the Republican Party the Grand Ole Party that so many things, so many great things for our country. We want think of Republican Party be a strong party. But this is a hijacked political party that is taking the party over the edge and trying to drag the country with it. And they're leaving the middle, wide open for us and that's where I think we have to go with our message as progress as Democrats as I am to take it to place where we build. Ep. 6 Nancy Pelosi 11

12 The consensus for the good of the American people, middle class, a consumer, economics, to turn the economy (INAUDIBLE) the President did, he's accomplishment are remarkable, they all haven't hit home for many people in our country. We have to show them why. AXELROD: Thank you so much for being here. PELOSI: My pleasure. Great to be with you. Thank you. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you for listening to t"the Axe Files". For more podcasts like this, subscribe to "The Axe Files" on itunes. And for more programming from the University of Chicago Institute of Politics, visit politics.uchicago.edu. Ep. 6 Nancy Pelosi 12