Man. Serial. The. who enters the minds of FEATURE

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1 FEATURE The Man who enters the minds of Serial an Interview wih anthony Meoli Interview by Katherine Ramsland, PhD, CMI-V Since my objective is steeped in wanting to know how and why one human being can have so much anger and rage against another human being, often completely unknown to them, a visit can often end such a relationship. Anthony Meoli has been corresponding with serial killers, spree killers, and death row inmates since He has successfully contacted over 130 worldwide and has personally interviewed five, including Danny Rolling, Glen Rogers, Loran Cole, Lee Boyd Malvo, and Isaac Zamora. In August 2012, he published, The Diary of the D.C. Sniper, co-written with Lee Boyd Malvo as the culmination of seven years of correspondence, phone calls, and a visit. He also appeared as a criminal profiler in the ID Network documentary My Brother the Serial Killer. In trying to better understand serial killers, he has collected their artwork, poetry, letters, and even their handprints. Meoli possesses one of the nation s largest private collections of full-sized handprints created by serial killers, which he has used in comparing fingerprint characteristics. Meoli holds a BS in criminal justice from Penn State University, a MA in forensic psychology from Argosy University, and a JD from John Marshall Law School. He is a Certified Forensic Consultant with ACFEI and is the President of Meoli Forensic Consulting, LLC. He agreed to answer some questions for The Forensic Examiner about his work. 64 THE FORENSIC EXAMINER Fall 2013

2 Katherine Ramsland and Anthony Meoli at the ACFEI s 2012 Executive Summit in Las Vegas, Nevada. FE: What launched your serial killer research project? AM: There was no particular trigger that began my initial interest in personally contacting and visiting serial killers; rather, it was the culmination of years of studying criminal justice and law, hearing about the cases, and wanting to know the motivation behind their crimes. FE: What is your ultimate goal? AM: To find a causal link between their right-brained (creative side) and an almost innate ability to compartmentalize their lives. It s incredibly difficult to commit murder, hold a job, appear normal to friends and family, yet fulfill the compulsion to kill. Serial killers are addicted to killing. Whether it is power, sexual deviancy, or some unmet psychological component, they simply cannot stop. I know this because many of the nearly 130 killers I have written have told me they liked what they were doing and would do it again. FE: How did you pick the ones on whom you focused? AM: Although I have corresponded with many serial killers from Georgia to Japan since 1998, it is difficult to establish a trusting relationship. However, in those individuals who are interested in writing, that relationship has allowed for deeper connections and even visitations. Visitation is not easy; it can take months or even years before they might extend the courtesy for a visit. I don t take visitation lightly nor do I travel around the country looking simply to visit serial killers. Since my objective is steeped in wanting to know how and why one human being can have so much anger and rage against another human being, often completely unknown to them, a visit can often end such a relationship. The personal visit is the mutual culmination of fascination between both individuals. Serial killers, in large part, often have many pen pals. Some might have over 100 around the world. So what makes you so unique that they would not only want you to visit, but remove someone else from a visitation list? That is why the number of my visits is limited. FE: What do the handprints add to your study? AM: A full handprint from an inmate is extremely difficult to obtain. Some facilities do not allow them out and many inmates are leery of why I am asking for it. What I get out of any one particular handprint is many-fold. I have a high-powered magnifier that I use to inspect each hand that I receive. I look for marks on the hand, to see if they were ever injured or had sustained trauma. I view scars (if it is a very good print), fingerprint patterns (whorl, arch, loop), and how the size of their hand compares to their height and weight. Then I compare to see if these hand characteristics would be what I would expect, based on the above-listed variables. Handprints can also show us whether an individual is obese. I also look at proportionality. For example, I have Keith Jesperson s handprints, an individual who stands nearly 6 6 tall. If I compare his prints to Lawrence Bittaker, who is barely 5 7 tall, I expect a change. Their handprints are relative to their height, clearly showing the massive difference in their size, as would be expected. I measure their digits, from the palm to tip of hand and width of the palm, which can also give relative size. So much can be gained from a legible, full-sized, handprint. While law enforcement takes fingerprint cards upon arrest, they do not log in their full hands. Fall 2013 THE FORENSIC EXAMINER 65

3 Artwork is the glue that I have found to be highly consistent among serial killers. Danny Rolling, Charles Ng, Bill Bonin, Lawrence Bittaker, Herbert Mullin, Elmer Wayne Henley, Glen Rogers, Lee Boyd Malvo, Kenneth Bianchi, Joe Roy Metheny, even Charles Manson, just to name a few, have all created some amazing artwork. I would disagree that this is coincidence. I do feel that there is a correlation from their artistic ability that should be examined on a much deeper level. While everyone who is artistic surely will not become a serial murderer, the idea is that their right-brained (emotional and creative side), the one that allows them to be both artistic and sadistic, seems to be heightened. Is this side also what allows them to compartmentalize their lives and appear normal? FE: You interviewed Glen Rogers extensively and decided that he s being truthful about his involvement in killing Nicole Brown Simpson. What are your primary indicators of his veracity? Anthony Meoli at his D.C. Sniper booth at ACFEI s 2012 Executive Summit. FE: What does the artwork add? AM: This may be the most interesting and compelling aspect of serial killers that I have encountered. Nearly every single serial killer I have written is artistic to some degree. What do I mean by artistic far exceeding what is normal artistic ability. Within each particular piece, the spatial accuracy of what they are when drawing is uncanny. Whether they are draw a tree, house, or face, their ability to capture the subtle spatial nuances of imagery is an unusual trait. AM: First, it is important to explain our relationship and its end. From 2009 to 2012, we wrote three times per week. I have over 1,100 pages of handwritten correspondence from Glen Rogers during this period. This is beyond anything I have ever experienced with any other inmate. Rogers admits in many letters that I was the first person to fully understand him, not judge him for his actions, thereby giving me his trust. To that end, we visited eight times between April 2010 and December As far as my ability to detect lying during an interview, I am a former federal investigator. I was a military intelligence officer with the United States Navy Reserve ( ). In August 2007, I received training at the National Maritime Intelligence Center to study human intelligence gathering techniques. Additionally, I was awarded the Navy Achievement Medal for my work in profiling terrorists. And while no human being can say with certainty whether someone is lying, I can say that I am fairly qualified to detect such malingering. For over 48 hours I sat across from Glen Edward Rogers. This is more time than anyone in his own immediate family has spent with him. After one or two six-hour visits, one can begin to pick up on nuances of someone s personality. We do it when we go out on a date in far less time. After three or four visits, your ability to detect malingering increases. I have had the opportunity to do this on eight separate occasions. Given that humans speak roughly words a minute, this interview time is equivalent to writing (250 words per page) for over 25 years. Glen Rogers admitted as far back as 1995 to a cellmate that he had been fingered as a possible suspect. This letter was forwarded to the D.A. s who were working the Simpson case, but nothing was done. Rogers lived 22 minutes away from the crime scene and was living at this location at the time of the murders. Galvin Paint Company, his employer at the time, performed work and conducted estimates on the very condominium complex where Nicole Brown Simpson lived. Glen s last day of work with Galvin Paint Company was the very weekend after the murders took place. Glen Rogers was known to torture and slice his victims necks. While he is known to have committed at least three murders, he is suspected in as many as 17 murders, many involving a knife. Nicole Brown Simpson was not only killed with a large knife, but she had torture marks near her clavicle bones. Would a man, who knew he had to get dressed, catch a limousine and flight, really choose a knife 66 THE FORENSIC EXAMINER Fall 2013

4 Katherine Ramsland and Anthony Meoli discussing Meoli s book, The Diary of the D.C. Sniper. as his method of murder that night? Why would he choose that night at all knowing he was under severe time constraints? These were all questions posed to me by Glen Rogers over the years. The media speculated, en masse, that Glen Rogers released this information to gain notoriety. The information that Glen provided to me preceded Discovery ID s initial contact by over 18 months. Rogers did not want this information out. He had wanted to tell the world himself. However, when My Brother the Serial Killer came to pass, I felt the world should know what I knew. What is maybe more interesting is not his writing and admitting to the crimes, but the stoppage of his letters. If it was true that Glen Rogers wanted more press from this information, why did he cease all correspondence with me as soon as it came to light? While I did inform Glen that we would be going over cold case information, he cut me from all communication once he learned I had told the world about his possible involvement in the O.J. Simpson case. Glen Rogers, the serial killer who had, at times, written three times a week, who d sent me over 100 pieces of art, and even the only picture that existed of his son ever visiting, just cut me off. This is what inmates do when they feel betrayed. If the press was correct, Glen should have been writing to me even more, congratulating me on getting this story to the press. Not so. Is it plausible that Glen Rogers may have convinced himself over his 18 years behind bars that he could lie so well as to avoid detection? Sure. But let us remember that Glen Rogers has perpetuated this lie for almost 20 years. I do consider Glen Rogers admissions to these crimes as a plausible alternative theory that may have been overlooked by the police. FE: What do you find to be problematic about the self-report of serial killers? AM: Serial killers are grandiose, narcissistic, and demand attention. They not only want to possess their victims, they want credit for doing so. Many serials have failed at many aspects in their life, but the one thing they are good at is taking lives and avoiding detection. Of course we must give credence to the concept that many of them will lie for attention, money, commissary items, or even stamps. They will recount stories of unsolved murders simply to get you to give in to their requests. I try my best to avoid these inmates when possible. How I try to avoid problematic self-reporting is to avoid asking case questions. I might write to an inmate for six months before discussing a single nuance of their case. This builds suspense as to why I am writing them. Just like their compelling need for more attention, they have an almost involuntary response to provide some details. So, yes, self-reporting is highly problematic, but it also depends on one s method of collecting data. Is my method foolproof? No. However, it is apparent that many serial personalities are often as intrigued with me as I am with them, which facilitates some very interesting discussions. As with almost any human relationship, if your interest-level is not the same, the relationship will not last and communication will slowly cease. FE: What was your experience of interviewing Lee Boyd Malvo? How did you gain his trust? Fall 2013 THE FORENSIC EXAMINER 67

5 AM: I began writing to Lee Boyd Malvo in 2005 and continued my correspondence with him through 2012 as we finished our book. Over that time we wrote many times but more importantly I took his phone calls. From we spoke, via 20-minute phone calls, over 50 times. We got to know each other quite well with him agreeing, verbally and in writing, for me to record each and every call. The acceptance of the recording made each call very intimate. During this time I came to know Lee as a boy, a teenager, and as a young man. I learned of how a once innocent child can be brought up in an abusive household and how it can shape the mind. His anger response as I termed it, was highly volatile. If I said the wrong word or wrote the wrong line in our correspondence, I could expect an angry phone call. I visited Lee in June He was similar to as he was on the phone, friendly to a point, but highly volatile when pressed with simple questions. Lee Malvo is a highly narcissistic and controlling individual. This was no different when we were three feet away from each other at Red Onion State Prison or 900 miles away over the phone. BE SURE TO CHECK OUT Katherine Ramsland and Anthony Meoli s Featured Story in the Winter Issue of The Forensic Examiner FE: Danny Rolling is known to act out in strange ways. Did any of your questions dig up previously unknown information? 68 THE FORENSIC EXAMINER Fall 2013 AM: I wrote Danny Rolling for three years, up until his execution in He was known for yelling out [such] disturbing thoughts at night on death row that even the most hardened criminals sought cell relocation. When I visited Danny at Union Correction Institution on November 15, 2003, it was via a six hour visit. He sat unshackled across from me at a round silver metal table, the seats bolted to the floor. He was free to move around and took advantage of the rare opportunity to eat food not afforded to them normally. We began our conversation slowly, easing into the simple questions, and he asked many questions as well. Danny wanted to know more about me, which I obliged. As the day wore on and we got more comfortable, I probed him about unsolved crimes in a roundabout fashion. As of 2003, when we began, Danny had not been convicted of any of the crimes in Louisiana that took place in There were three unsolved murders of the Grissom family, who lived close to Danny s own home in Shreveport, LA. When I asked Danny if he had been involved in other cases similar to what happened at the University of Florida, he said, Why don t you rephrase your question. I then asked him to do the following. If you wouldn t mind, use your finger and tap on the table. Danny asked, Tap on the table for what? I said, You are in this facility for doing certain things at the University of Florida, and we know of at least five of them. With his right index finger, he looked at me without much hesitation and began to bang on the table. I counted in my head as he began, One, Two, Three, Four, Five, Six, Seven, Eight. He then looked at me and said, I think you have your answer about Louisiana. I figured he had just divulged this information, and chances were great that we were never going to visit again. I decided to see if I could go any further since we had already broached this topic in our correspondence, and each time he got upset with me. So I finally explained, as I had in letters, that I felt his two personalities, Ennad (simply Danny backwards) and Gemini, seemed contrived. Given that he was quite methodical and organized in his killings, even posing four of the five victims at the University of Florida and cleaning up his victims afterwards. Danny had entered late at night, using a screwdriver for entry, but improvised quite well once inside. He d beheaded one victim, sitting her head on a bookshelf for police to see as they entered. It would be a sight they would never forget. Having visited each of his crime scenes prior to my visit, even being allowed into the actual apartment where the first murders occurred, it gave me insight as to how he entered, avoided detection, and attacked these young co-eds. Knowing this information, I pried him about his personalities (very late in the day) to the point where he got so uncomfortable that he gave me a stare I will never forget. Danny stared at me from across the table with his deep blue eyes. They seemed to pierce my soul and I almost felt Danny s coldness. I had interviewed many inmates over the years from other jobs, and nothing had prepared me for this particular encounter. It was not a look of anger, or hate, it was a look as if he wanted to almost consume me at that moment. He followed this stare with a sentence that remains with me as a learning tool: Tony, you know that when you take someone s life you actually lose a little part of your soul in the process. Eventually, when you commit enough murders, you don t have any soul left. This was amazing insight and showed me how he operated seemingly devoid of remorse, almost enjoying his crimes and spending time with his victims. FE: Are you planning an extensive correspondence with any other killers? AM: All my correspondence is intended to be extensive. I have a form letter that I alter according to the inmate s personality. It is a straightforward and honest letter, telling the inmate why I am interested in contacting them and what they can expect from me. If they like it, they respond, if not, they will not. For now, I still have two inmates that I have written for over a decade and will continue to do so. I currently write to about five total inmates and speak regularly over the phone with a spree shooter from Washington State.