Triangle. Double Jeopardy? Child Witnesses with Autism. Ruth Marchant for Triangle

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1 Double Jeopardy? Child Witnesses with Autism Ruth Marchant for Triangle 2012 Triangle An independent organisation working with children and young people providing skilled communication assistance including intermediaries giving expert opinion to the courts teaching and advising parents & professionals Me at Triangle and my dog 1

2 Triangle works alongside the justice system in many ways Hosting assessments, ABE interviews, trial prep and remote livelink Directly interviewing some children (under 4s plus children with complex communication impairments) Providing expert opinion to the courts Providing witness intermediaries at interview and trial Providing intermediaries for young suspects at interview and for young defendants at trial Providing training and resources Roles children and young people hold in Triangle Adviser, consultee, expert on own experience Supporter and facilitator of younger children Video developer, communication demonstrator Trainer of professionals & parents Recruitment adviser Interior designer Earner 2

3 Ruth Marchant Most of my work is where children s evidence or views are needed for criminal or family court 20 years as an interviewer and as an intermediary With more than 500 child witnesses who are Very young (under six) And/or have impairments of communication More than 50 with autistic spectrum conditions Double jeopardy Being a child Having an autistic spectrum condition Being a child witness with an autistic spectrum condition 3

4 The context Perceptions of children s competence as witnesses have shifted repeatedly in the last few decades. In England, the legislative foundations are now in place to enable the evidence of even very young children to be heard and tested: clear guidance is available for interviewing teams; for prosecutors and advocates and for the judiciary. Double jeopardy part one Increased risk of abuse (age + ASC) Confusion of possible indicators of concern Reduced likelihood of early pick up Communication challenges because of age Communication challenges because of autism 4

5 Double jeopardy part two Because of their age and because of their autism, these children are particularly vulnerable to unsafe interview strategies and leading or complex questioning Professionals often feel out of their depth and therefore ask even riskier questions or abandon the attempt altogether What s the problem? Even without autism, young children often seen as the problem: If the child is under five, run a mile the Everest of cross examinations Developmental limitations Don t comply with interview protocols Are poor communicators 5

6 Even without autism Young child witnesses may not comply with adult expectations at interview or trial may be seen as uninterviewable may attempt to answer questions they do not understand, or may answer questions unintelligibly, or with single words only, or by showing rather than telling, or not at all. Even without autism Very young children struggle with comprehension monitoring and source monitoring. Both these abilities are linked to theory of mind. Children who do not yet have a robust theory of mind will find the processes of interview and crossexamination particularly challenging 6

7 It is possible to begin from another place with the communicative strengths of young children and children with autism and an understanding that communication is a two way street: children s communicative competence is very dependent on adults competence Whose communicative competence? Adults may find it difficult to adapt their own communication in order to make sense to young children. This is more complex than it may appear: avoiding difficult words only scratches the surface, questions can be complicated because of their structure and their implications, not just because of their words. (Lyon 2010 p92). 7

8 With or without autism Young children should not be expected to separate from their carers without help, to sit still, to do nothing, to process complex language or to resist suggestive questioning, either at interview or at trial. 8

9 Why we made Three Way Street Most of Triangle s communication with children takes place in the presence of other adults, and this is often the most challenging part of our work. We struggled to find resources to help with three way communication Three Way Street aims to improve practice by Summarising the evidence base for three way communication with children. Reflecting on common approaches that may impede children s involvement in three way interactions. Demonstrating specific strategies to facilitate three way communication. Representing children as active agents and competent communicators. 9

10 Setting conditions for good communication Calm Clear about what s happening Comfortable In control of important things Including food/drink/toilet/breaks/access to accompanying adult/own things expectations children are accustomed to interactions with adults in which the adult knows the answer and the child is either being taught the answer, or should have learned the answer and is now being tested. Thomas Lyon 2010 p94 10

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13 Choose your words carefully suite present DS eye gaze forcing children to look at the questioner s face interferes with recall and thinking ( look at me while I m talking to you ) Very young babies avert gaze to reduce arousal Older children -?from about 8? learn to avert gaze to control cognitive load 3-8 year olds, children with ASC, need particular care: basically if a child is staring at you in response to questions, be very cautious. Try actively looking away. 13

14 scaffolding A temporary framework for construction in progress Does not hold up the building, but allows the child and adult to climb higher Bruner 1950s; Vygostky 1980s Scaffolding for interviews Resources, or interactions that enable the child to do something beyond his or her independent efforts A temporary framework put up for support and access to meaning Rules Play materials Symbols Visual timetable Art materials Drawings Props Adult behaviours 14

15 Rules must match child s needs Say if we don t know Say if we don t understand No guessing If I get it wrong tell me Quiet playing One toy at a time Go out when you need to Come back when you re ready No hitting throwing spitting Clothes stay on Struggling with open questions Juno hurt my bumbum (gesturing to own bottom) How did Juno hurt your bumbum? yes How did Juno hurt your bumbum? did What did Juno hurt your bumbum with? him How did Juno hurt your bumbum? Blood did come Scaffolding by repeating back unfinished sentence (also allows more than one answer) Juno hurt your bumbum with Him hand. uhuh And him willy. 15

16 Say what you mean Why have you come to talk to me today? Because mummy brought me Can you tell me what happened? Yes I want to take you back to the bedroom Look of terror Examples of nonliteral language at a single recent trial: Grasp the nettle Paint me a picture Water off a ducks back Put the cat amongst the pigeons Let the cat out of the bag It s a double edged sword After the horse has bolted Cards on the table A complete red herring Caught red handed Lets put that in to the long grass In a nutshell Once the dust has settled Out of hand Keep your eye on the ball Keep our eye on the clock Dot the Is and cross the Ts Just shy of five minutes Spinning a yarn Tell me your story 16

17 Risky questions Get even riskier with children who are very young or who have more complex needs How many times did this happen? One thousand and ninety four When did this happen? When I had different shoes Struggling with circular explanations Tell me about daddy? What made you cry? What did daddy do? What was scarey? How did daddy scare you? What did daddy do? My daddy made me cry My daddy Scare me in the kitchen My daddy Him did I don t like daddy Scare me Scaffolding by using strong gesturing (also allows more than one way to explain) I don t know what daddy did in the kitchen (shrugging, don t know face) (stands up) GET OUT KITCHEN (angry grimace) My daddy did SHOUT make me cry (raising voice) SHOUT what did he shout? (leans forward cups hands to mouth) shouts GO AWAY ELLIE F***ING GO AWAY ELLIE him got knife cutted mummy (demonstrating) 17

18 Practice Recall Unequivocal evidence that this improves the quantity and quality of information that children provide Must be episodic questioning about a single event Gives you the chance to practice too! Why use play materials, dolls, drawings and symbols? to assess a child's language or understanding to keep a child calm,settled and in one place to help organise ideas to help with timing and sequencing to give a child some control to help the child look away from you to enable a child to give an account of events to support a child s recall of events to help a child to explain especially where they don t have the right words 18

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21 Child s Own Drawings Drawings has significant benefits. Check whether the child can represent themselves symbolically eg asking draw a picture of you or draw (child s name). 4 yrs 4 months; developmental delay 21

22 5 yrs 1 month, child with autism Which drawing did defence counsel prefer? 22

23 Why the images were developed Children who have more than 20 symbols for body parts but no symbol for bottom (or any other private body part) Children who can communicate about the national curriculum but have no way of saying leave me alone Children who have 15 different colours in their communication system but can t ask for a cuddle 23

24 The images are designed to Support children to communicate about their feelings, their rights, their bodies and their basic needs Assist adults to work with children on these issues Enable children to communicate about abuse in evidentially safer ways Enable adults to investigate concerns about children in evidentially safer ways 24

25 Symbols for bottom / ass 25

26 bottom, bum, backside, butt bottom, bum, backside, butt bottom, bum, backside, butt bottom, bum, backside, butt bottom, bum, backside, butt How It Is p61 26

27 R v Barker 2010 The question in each case is whether the individual child is competent to give evidence in the particular trial. The question is entirely witness or child specific. There are no presumptions or preconceptions. Dealing with it broadly and fairly, provided the witness can understand the questions put to him and can also provide understandable answers, he or she is competent (para 38). Child witnesses with autism can give clear and reliable evidence if the process is adjusted to their needs, which means Clear expectations Calm environments Careful communication 27

28 Child witnesses with autism need help to understand that we need to ask questions, that they can provide information to us, that we will listen carefully with no guessing, that they can correct us if we get it wrong, that they can stop the questioning at anytime and do something else, or leave the room when they need to and come back when they are ready. 28

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30 Set up for serious physical play: trampoline, garden, slide on stairs Developing our work with the youngest children and those with the most complex needs will help improve our practice with all children. Involving children in this process is essential. Thank you for attending; please if you would like our free e-news (quarterly) 30